Posting images as a learner

[Dmack1]

Hi folks, my first real post on here although I am active on other forums.

As this is a new and fresh forum can I just share a thought with you all about what I hope for when I post images. 

As a true beginner/learner I post images because I am looking for honest opinion on whether they are good, bad,awful. I almost always put something like c&c welcome, or suggestions for improvement?

What I find happens is that on a few, too few, occasions ill get someone who says, "its got a green cast, try.....". That specific one was last week and I was truly grateful because I'd not seen it.

More often though the posts get a few likes a couple of "fantastic image"s and thats it. Which is of course gratifying! But the truly good images get, appropriately enough, dozens of comments. If all I was looking for was a pat on the back that would be great but in terms of learning and improving....not that useful.

 

I have a theory that when people who know good from bad see a poor image or even one that could be improved, they just hit "like" rather than comment because they don't want the OP to be hurt or upset. I get that. 

But if someone specifically says "how could I make this better" we should assume they are open to hearing it. (Preferably not "sell all your kit and buy what I have" which is a regular reply on one forum)

So a bit of a long winded first post, and I do hope its taken as.it meant and not some type of criticism or moan. 

Rgds

 

David

 

[Skipper Billy]

My own view is that if someone hasn't asked for C&C then unless its outstanding I say nothing

If they have asked for C&C then, if I can, I offer constructive C&C

I never click 'like' as I don't really see what that means. On another forum I asked for the name of a tree surgeon and got 14 likes !!

[MarkAR]

Great first post, you'll find the folks here full of handy tips to improve your imaging. 

[Dmack1]

Posted by: @skipper-billy

My own view is that if someone hasn't asked for C&C then unless its outstanding I say nothing

If they have asked for C&C then, if I can, I offer constructive C&C

I never click 'like' as I don't really see what that means. On another forum I asked for the name of a tree surgeon and got 14 likes !!

I think that's a good approach. I nearly hit like for your comment on the tree surgeon. Just stopped myself in time! ? 

[Hallingskies]

I’ve been in this hobby (off and on) for 20 years and still feel like I only have 40 x 6 month’s-worth of experience. One of the problems with posting an image and asking for constructive comments on processing is that the replies are often of the “use what I use” type, which you have already referred to.

I’m kind of wedded to really old versions of software (Paint Shop Pro and Astroart) that I know inside out. Whilst well-intentioned of course, advice that I should apply full DBI in order to scropulise my phleem in Pixinsight or some such was (to me, anyway) unhelpful gibberish. (I tried my best to get to grips with PI but for me, the pain wasn’t worth the gain...).

My own experience is that you have to look at other folk’s work and ask “how did they do that” in general terms, rather than try and get them to tell you on your own images.  I don’t think equipment is anywhere near as big a factor as processing.

I have found that forums such as these are good for picking up useful tips. Olly Penrice regularly posts on SGL and his contributions often contain really helpful stuff. Carole Pope (who I’m glad to see on here) also has some good tutorials about processing on her web page.  Carole’s stuff is particularly good as she doesn’t use high-end kit and her observing site is even crummier than mine in terms of light pollution. They use software that’s different to mine but near enough to be useful to me.

There are lots of web tutorials for any kind of astro-processing you want to do and with any sort of software. The oft-touted books by Steve Richards are also very good.

 

[Carastro]

Thank you for that HallingSkies.  

Yes I agree with what the OP said about being offered advice to simply use different software or kit, that's not really what he needs or wants.  

I am also like Hallingskies in that I stick with the software that I know and love, I don't use bells and whistles and tend to do everything manually rather than using fancy software to do it for me, mainly because i feel the more complex things get, the more there is that can go wrong. 

I think on the whole people are afraid to cause offence, so I think you will need to be quite clear that you want constructive comments each time you post, and then I think people will be more forthcoming.

Have a look at my tutorials which Halling has linked to, they are in Photoshop, and very simply explained as I am no great techie.

Hope you enjoy being a member of this forum.

Carole 

[Carastro]

Actually having clicked on Hallings link it leads to a page on levels and curves, so take a look at my video tutorials and see if there is anything useful, I think AP depends firstly on reasonably good data, but even half good data can be made to look reasonable with good processing. 

https://sites.google.com/site/caroleastroimaging/home/video-tutorials

 

Carole  

[geoflewis]

Posted by: @Dmack1

Hi folks, my first real post on here although I am active on other forums.

As this is a new and fresh forum can I just share a thought with you all about what I hope for when I post images. 

As a true beginner/learner I post images because I am looking for honest opinion on whether they are good, bad,awful. I almost always put something like c&c welcome, or suggestions for improvement?

What I find happens is that on a few, too few, occasions ill get someone who says, "its got a green cast, try.....". That specific one was last week and I was truly grateful because I'd not seen it.

More often though the posts get a few likes a couple of "fantastic image"s and thats it. Which is of course gratifying! But the truly good images get, appropriately enough, dozens of comments. If all I was looking for was a pat on the back that would be great but in terms of learning and improving....not that useful.

 

I have a theory that when people who know good from bad see a poor image or even one that could be improved, they just hit "like" rather than comment because they don't want the OP to be hurt or upset. I get that. 

But if someone specifically says "how could I make this better" we should assume they are open to hearing it. (Preferably not "sell all your kit and buy what I have" which is a regular reply on one forum)

So a bit of a long winded first post, and I do hope its taken as.it meant and not some type of criticism or moan. 

Rgds

 

David

 

That's a great first post David.

I think the problem arises from some folks saying "C&C welcome", but then don't like it, or even take offence when advice is offered. It's very difficult to offer criticism in writing without knowing the individual, God knows it's hard doing that at home, or in the workplace with people that you are with day after day. That said you make a great point and perhaps we should try to be more helpful than just 'liking' images.

Best regards, Geof

[Dmack1]

Posted by: @Hallingskies

I’ve been in this hobby (off and on) for 20 years and still feel like I only have 40 x 6 month’s-worth of experience. One of the problems with posting an image and asking for constructive comments on processing is that the replies are often of the “use what I use” type, which you have already referred to.

I’m kind of wedded to really old versions of software (Paint Shop Pro and Astroart) that I know inside out. Whilst well-intentioned of course, advice that I should apply full DBI in order to scropulise my phleem in Pixinsight or some such was (to me, anyway) unhelpful gibberish. (I tried my best to get to grips with PI but for me, the pain wasn’t worth the gain...).

My own experience is that you have to look at other folk’s work and ask “how did they do that” in general terms, rather than try and get them to tell you on your own images.  I don’t think equipment is anywhere near as big a factor as processing.

I have found that forums such as these are good for picking up useful tips. Olly Penrice regularly posts on SGL and his contributions often contain really helpful stuff. Carole Pope (who I’m glad to see on here) also has some good tutorials about processing on her web page.  Carole’s stuff is particularly good as she doesn’t use high-end kit and her observing site is even crummier than mine in terms of light pollution. They use software that’s different to mine but near enough to be useful to me.

There are lots of web tutorials for any kind of astro-processing you want to do and with any sort of software. The oft-touted books by Steve Richards are also very good.

 

Thanks for that. And I do agree, you can get a lot of ideas by looking a tutorials etc and I certainly do that.

But for me at this early stage, one of the most difficult things is to look at an image I have just spent possibly hours on and actually critique it. Its partly because my eye and mind are not tuned in yet to what is good or bad in an AP image. I just don't really know. So that constructive critique from the experienced folks is a really important part of the learning process.

If I kept getting told that my less than mediocre image is "awesome" then it's difficult to improve. I'm going to post a couple of things later today asking specific questions.

BTW, it was Olly Penrice who told me about the green cast. That's exactly the critique and help that I'm talking about.

[geoflewis]

Posted by: @Dmack1

BTW, it was Olly Penrice who told me about the green cast. That's exactly the critique and help that I'm talking about

Olly really knows his stuff and in my experience is one of the most help contributors on any astro forum I've visited.

Geof

[RPK_Astro]

Hi David - you pose an interesting question.

Although I've been an amateur for 50 years, I've had a long time away from it completely (about 15 years) and I've not done any 'serious' observing type stuff since the early 1980s. It was lockdown and the loss of all of my music based activities, and some online posts from old friends of mine, that pushed the 'reset' button on astronomy and getting into digital AP.

You raise an important point about how can more experienced people help those who are less experienced? As Hallingskies says above, many merely respond with "this is what I do" which may or may not be of assistance.

I have watched many videos online on various aspects of AP from equipment options and reviews, through processing with various software options. To be honest, many of the processing ones are not that helpful since they are 'experienced' they often go 'click, click, bang' far too quickly for someone who is unfamiliar with the process to pick up what they've done. There are some exceptions. And whilst I know that people want to build up their online presence, I find some spend more time talking about their channel and promoting it than providing information. The good ones 'sell' themselves...

I am reasonably technically minded and I'm used to dealing with recalcitrant computer software for work... but I have to say that some of the astro-imaging software takes the biscuit for user hostile interfaces and lack of documentation...

I think people shy away from providing comments and feedback as they don't wish to cause offence. I think if it's known that you want genuine feedback, people will be happy to give it, but it may need some filtering if it's based around 'this is what I do'.

Like you I will be seeking feedback to help improve as I'm a novice at digital AP.     

[geoflewis]

Posted by: @RPK_Astro

Hi David - you pose an interesting question.

Although I've been an amateur for 50 years, I've had a long time away from it completely (about 15 years) and I've not done any 'serious' observing type stuff since the early 1980s. It was lockdown and the loss of all of my music based activities, and some online posts from old friends of mine, that pushed the 'reset' button on astronomy and getting into digital AP.

You raise an important point about how can more experienced people help those who are less experienced? As Hallingskies says above, many merely respond with "this is what I do" which may or may not be of assistance.

I have watched many videos online on various aspects of AP from equipment options and reviews, through processing with various software options. To be honest, many of the processing ones are not that helpful since they are 'experienced' they often go 'click, click, bang' far too quickly for someone who is unfamiliar with the process to pick up what they've done. There are some exceptions. And whilst I know that people want to build up their online presence, I find some spend more time talking about their channel and promoting it than providing information. The good ones 'sell' themselves...

I am reasonably technically minded and I'm used to dealing with recalcitrant computer software for work... but I have to say that some of the astro-imaging software takes the biscuit for user hostile interfaces and lack of documentation...

I think people shy away from providing comments and feedback as they don't wish to cause offence. I think if it's known that you want genuine feedback, people will be happy to give it, but it may need some filtering if it's based around 'this is what I do'.

Like you I will be seeking feedback to help improve as I'm a novice at digital AP.     

Very well put Ron

Geof

[Dmack1]

Posted by: @geoflewis

Posted by: @Dmack1

Hi folks, my first

That's a great first post David.

I think the problem arises from some folks saying "C&C welcome", but then don't like it, or even take offence when advice is offered. It's very difficult to offer criticism in writing without knowing the individual, God knows it's hard doing that at home, or in the workplace with people that you are with day after day. That said you make a great point and perhaps we should try to be more helpful than just 'liking' images.

Best regards, Geof

Hi Geof.

Yes you are right, some peoples "c&c welcome" is more "please tell how great this is". But that's kinda their problem?

And of course it is sometimes tough to hear that an imge you think is not too bad is actually rubbish. But honestly I'd rather have someone point out the flaws and suggest how I can make it better than just rack up likes.

But it also comes down a bit to how the critique is delivered. One of my early images got only one response on another forum which was "Stars trailed, out of focus". And that was it! Now they were very slightly trailed but little enough that you really needed to zoom in to 500x to confirm it, and very slightly oof. I was not that happy with that comment if I'm honest. On a different forum someone else also pointed out the trailing which was actually field rotation and helped me tighten up PA. Then told me about and how to use a bahtinov. That was a great comment and really helped me to improve.

So delivery is important too.

David

[Dmack1]

Posted by: @RPK_Astro

Hi David - you pose an interesting question.

Although I've been an amateur for 50 years, I've had a long time away from it completely (about 15 years) and I've not done any 'serious' observing type stuff since the early 1980s. It was lockdown and the loss of all of my music based activities, and some online posts from old friends of mine, that pushed the 'reset' button on astronomy and getting into digital AP.

You raise an important point about how can more experienced people help those who are less experienced? As Hallingskies says above, many merely respond with "this is what I do" which may or may not be of assistance.

I have watched many videos online on various aspects of AP from equipment options and reviews, through processing with various software options. To be honest, many of the processing ones are not that helpful since they are 'experienced' they often go 'click, click, bang' far too quickly for someone who is unfamiliar with the process to pick up what they've done. There are some exceptions. And whilst I know that people want to build up their online presence, I find some spend more time talking about their channel and promoting it than providing information. The good ones 'sell' themselves...

I am reasonably technically minded and I'm used to dealing with recalcitrant computer software for work... but I have to say that some of the astro-imaging software takes the biscuit for user hostile interfaces and lack of documentation...

I think people shy away from providing comments and feedback as they don't wish to cause offence. I think if it's known that you want genuine feedback, people will be happy to give it, but it may need some filtering if it's based around 'this is what I do'.

Like you I will be seeking feedback to help improve as I'm a novice at digital AP.     

Thanks for that. And I agree with you on all of it. Particularly the quality of some of the processing videos. But there are some good ones too.

For me the most difficult part is actually seeing and "root causing" the problem in the first place?. 

David

[Incisive_Solutions]

@skipper-billy this is my view too Billy.  

I admin on a beginner page and you at times have to be a mind reader as to what people are actually wanting from it by posting their images. 

some want a gallery to show off their images and want praise regardless, some want useful suggestion, and others just want the ‘companionship’ of sharing their images.  

until you get to know the poster it’s hard to know where they’re coming from unless they say!

On our page, people often are afraid to post first images etc - and tell you so by pm! so because it’s a beginner page, I tend to lean on the encouraging side to give confidence to post.

If they ask for c&c tho, I tend to give it but always with a view to helping rather than just harsh criticism or saying ‘I do this’ - I try to make it applicable to the person so it’s useful to them 

[Jkulin]

Hi David, I work on the basis if I can see an easy fix to help someone then I will always try and help.

if someone thinks their image is superb then I will be the last to criticise, unless they have asked for it.

My images have loads that can make them better, however the day you stop learning is the day you start dying!