Dark Frame Optics

[Astrodad]

Well I have bitten the bullet and sent my HEQ5 Pro off to Dave at Dark frame Optics for a StellarDrive tune, The mount has been performing ok but I like the idea of longer unguided opportunities and the heavier payload capacity the upgrade brings.

Speaking with Dave on the phone he has said that as its only 6 months old and already has the Rowan Belt Mod he should be able to turn it around in 2 weeks, which if we have clear skies is going to seem like 2 years!! I have read reports online of people waiting months to get stuff back but I'm hoping he has things under control now and not taking on more than he can commit to. 

Will keep everyone updated on its progress and results once I get it back. Was collected via DHL today

[GazAstro]

Fingers crossed for you, they do get some varied reviews :-) I've nver used them personally but Dave is a real nice helpful guy - I had problems with my old AVX mount and emailed him for his opinion. He was very knowledgeable and replied quickly.

[TerryMcK]

I’ve seen these Stelladrive tunes advertised. What sort of capacity increase for the HEQ5 do they give?

[Astrodad]

Posted by: @TerryMcK

I’ve seen these Stelladrive tunes advertised. What sort of capacity increase for the HEQ5 do they give?

He said they should give up to 18KG after the tune

[AstroOlly]

Posted by: @Astrodad

Posted by: @TerryMcK

I’ve seen these Stelladrive tunes advertised. What sort of capacity increase for the HEQ5 do they give?

He said they should give up to 19KG after the tune

Hmmm, well unless he is changing the motors and the worm gearing for a stronger material then I can’t see how a tune can allow more weight....better and longer unguided tracking...yes...but bigger payload....nah....??

[Astrodad]

Posted by: @AstroOlly

Posted by: @Astrodad

Posted by: @TerryMcK

I’ve seen these Stelladrive tunes advertised. What sort of capacity increase for the HEQ5 do they give?

He said they should give up to 19KG after the tune

Hmmm, well unless he is changing the motors and the worm gearing for a stronger material then I can’t see how a tune can allow more weight....better and longer unguided tracking...yes...but bigger payload....nah....??

Here is a link to the page and a brief snippet of part of that page

https://www.darkframeoptics.com/StellarDrive__5_Mount/p2013568_19207915.aspx

Work includes:

 

Every Mount is examined externally for any damage and owner notified for any extra-parts (replacement Sky-Watcher EQ bolts for example).

 

The Mount is stripped back in both axis to component level, inspected for damage or wear, and degreased and ultrasonically cleaned where applicable. Bearings are then replaced with low friction and super smooth Hybrid-Ceramic worm-gear bearings, that really do improve the responsiveness of this mount. All bearings are checked and spun before fitting. Over and above our standard rebuild extra work includes:

• StellarDrive-SPX™ High Precision worm-gears for RA and DEC axis.
• Brass crown rings are super-finished as are cone axis bearing cups, and quality checked using a Specular Reflectometer.
• More surface work on internal castings.
• WaveFormR™ axis testing based on our build data to ensure correct backlash adjustment.

Owners are notified for any extra-parts and time if required if there is a need of repair, as other costs may be incurred.

Mount is reassembled using upgraded dampening greases and oils which operate in all temperatures from -30ºC to +125ºC (we use them in our Export Service and our own products so have been tested at these temperatures for over three years!).

 

We fit the Rowan Astronomy Belt kit that allows you to use the existing handset, which also is a major contribution to the mounts performance by eliminating backlash in the standard brass drive gears. It also removes the noisy meshing noises when going into and out of fast slewing.

[AstroOlly]

@astrodad

so they are replacing the parts i mentioned, so in that case it must be quite pricey....is it not worth upgrading the mount instead...?

A friend of mine had his EQ6 tuned there recently, then got it back and upgraded to an CEM60 and sold the EQ6....never really found out why....?

Anyway sounds like a very in depth overhaul on your mount....?

[AstronomyUkraine]

Posted by: @AstroOlly

A friend of mine had his EQ6 tuned there recently

I upgraded my EQ6 myself, cost a little over £150. I did the belt mod with the kit from Rowan, replaced all the dodgy bearings with SKF equivalents, and replaced the stuff they call grease, with good quality grease from Geoptic. It halved my guiding errors, and runs a lot quieter now.

[AstroOlly]

@astronomyukraine

yes I did my own EQ8... ?

[Jkulin]

I had my old HEQ5 done about 4 years ago and to be truthful I had my doubts as I had to send it back at my expense for a clutch that wouldn't hold, but then about 2 1/2 years ago I sent my SW Adventurer away and apart from an easier to loosen clutch I noticed no difference.

I did repeatedly ask for guide graphs before and after and never received any and I don't believe many have either.

The biggest difference I noticed with the HEQ5 was when my mate fitted a Rowan Belt drive.

So dark Magic or Voodoo I can't say, however I have changed and now with my 3rd iOptron 60EC, 120EC and 40EC and would never send it anywhere else other than Ian at Altair to service.

JMHO

[GazAstro]

This has just been uploaded ... Very interesting. Might even see your mount on the bench ?

 

[Astrodad]

Posted by: @GazAstro

This has just been uploaded ... Very interesting. Might even see your mount on the bench ?

 

Yes I watched that. I'm just hoping he is good to his word and I will receive it back in the two week timeframe he quoted. Its only been away for 4 days and I already feel like I'm missing a limb!

[Astrodad]

Update:

I am picking my mount up this coming Saturday, Its all been upgraded/tuned and tested and will be on a tripod for me to be shown all the work that has been carried out. So that has actually taken him 9 working days and less than the original time scale estimate which is fantastic. Looking forward to meeting with him and seeing his workshop. Of course the weather report for the weekend and next week is looking crap, which is always the way when you want clear skies! 

[GazAstro]

Really hope it's worked out well ??

[GazAstro]

So did you opt for the £449 job with new bearings etc ? 

[Astrodad]

Posted by: @GazAstro

So did you opt for the £449 job with new bearings etc ? 

Hi, Yes I did go for that option. Already have the Rowan belt mod in place. 

[GazAstro]

Fingers crossed ... looking forward to seeing the results.

[TerryMcK]

From the video I have seen of his work I’m sure it will be fantastic.

[gilesco]

Do keep us updated on this, I have been contemplating getting my CGX done as it sometimes gives out a little moaning noise while slewing.

[gilesco]

How did it go?

[Astrodad]

Hi, Picked up the Mount this morning and had a really good chat with David. He went through with me everything he had done I could tell straight away by just loosening the clutches off that it had been worked on. Everything moved/rotated very smoothly. Absolutely love the new red badgers and levers fitted. 

so when I got home I had a quick set up indoors to just check everything operated correctly and then tonight noticed I had semi clear skies so quickly took everything outside and did a really rough set up, mount wasn’t fantastically level and I did a very rough polar alignment and got everything up and running. PHD2 was giving me 0.60 reading. And that’s with a rough set up. It’s also going to improve as the mount breaks itself in and things settle. I only got 15 minutes before the clouds appeared but very pleased with that so far. Looking forward to some proper clear skies

IMG_0554.mov

 

[GazAstro]

Sounds like a result ! Really pleased for you.

Just realised ... Looks almost festive with the red and green ?

[Astrodad]

@GazAstro Lol yes it does. He also has those green parts on order in grey I believe as well as a few other ideas in the works

[KevS]

A few observations:

In my professional life the general consensus was (and no doubt still is) the cost for the installation of a mechanical, or electro-mechanical system was roughly the cost of the components to include consumables. With taper roller and radial bearings regardless of the quality, manufacturer or material there would be at least a 70% discount available on the quoted price from a supplier if one was a regular customer.

Ceramic or ceramic hybrid bearings would have no advantage whatsoever for the application stated and indeed may exhibit disadvantages. Pure ceramic sets are used in industry where high corrosion resistance is needed, also due to their composition they can be run without lubrication, which is obviously advantageous in the food production industry. They have a lower thermal specific heat capacity and subsequent lower coefficient of thermal expansion, as a consequence they are eminently suitable for high temperature applications. However ceramics cannot be "machined" to the same quality surface finish as  equivalent metal components, (Ra 0.1) providing a maximum P5 precision class. Where as high quality metal bearing can be manufactured to P9 (ABEC9). Ceramics are also very susceptible to physical and thermal shock loading. Although we could construe that thermal shock loading may not be a problem in our particular application, physical shock loading may be problematical for those that transport their mounts to dark sky sights. 

I have rebuilt my EQ6-R mount to effectively achieve zero backlash on both axes in a couple of hours. This was achieved blind having never taken one down for rebuild before, the caveat being I am a "time served" and degree qualified mechanical engineer with 40 years of diverse experience. The amount of grease I used in the rebuild would have filled a couple of thimbles. (Most problems I have encountered over the years with bearings/drive systems has been due to excessive grease)

At the speed that an astronomical mount turns the grease is effectively an anti corrosion agent, although it obviously possesses some friction reducing qualities; although and again from experience some lithium based (low temperature) greases have a higher coefficient of friction when operated at low speeds when compared to some standard type greases. (how many of us operate mounts at -30C)

As for the alleged "damping" effect of grease, I am not quite sure how that would work grease being a liquid is subsequently non-compressible. Grease is effectively made of two main components, there is the thickening agent and oil, the oil supplies the lubrication and is released from the thickening agent (bled oil) by the relative shearing forces acting upon the components in which it is situated. No volume however would be lost, as a consequence I can envisage no damping.

In order to achieve better worm and wheel performance from a standard machined pair they would have to be "hobbed"; that is the components would need to be placed on a jig and allowed to run together while utilising some very fine grinding paste (Jewellers Rouge) to polish out the manufacturing anomalies. For a one off this could be done in situ, however one would have to be somewhat clinical in the removal of the residue from the system. 

So in conclusion:

4 bearings                     £150 (retail, but probably significantly less to the trade)

Tube of low temp grease £10:00 (enough for 50 sets of bearings, actual cost per unit £0.80)

Jewellers rouge              £12:00 (500g tub, would probably out last the average human life)

£449........................nice work if you can get it ? 

 

K

 

 

 

 

 

[GazAstro]

Maybe Kev could set up 'Lightframe mount tuning' as a budget option to Backyardastro forum members ? 

Must admit, I've ben tempted to strip / clean mine as I've never been too happy with it, I'm sure it was a rush job to catch up with the COVID backlog.